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New Battery Result


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#1 frogland

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 05:38 PM

I've been having the the classic low fuel pressure problems in my 2.8 crd.
Hard to start,constantly having to hand prime to start and press the accelerator. I checked the filter housing for leaks,and the fuel filter everything seems ok.I did the leak back test on the relief valve on the rail and that seemed fine so I was really starting to think fuel solenoid on the pump or dribbling injectors.
Anyway today I changed the battery from a 560A 70AH to a 800A 85AH I had to chop the tray but eventually got the bigger unit in place.
Low and behold the car started without any assistance !!
After a couple of minutes the cooling fan kicked in and then stopped ( is this normal ?)
It seems like a different car.
Its early days and we'll see how it goes but it's looking promising for now.
I think i'll be looking at doing the Leedsman's battery mod as well.

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#2 soupstone

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 08:35 PM

Best check you've nothing draining the battery too, if the battery looks to have solved the issue. 



#3 frogland

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 09:51 AM

Ok quick update battery was at 12.5v this morning,started 1st time. Battery was charging at 14.2 whilst running.
I went for a 30 min drive cut the engine and the battery was at 14.83.
It hasn't cured my P0235 code (boost) :(
a new MAP sensor is due in the post.

#4 mikebh8

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 03:35 PM

If is 12.5v after one overnight it is something wrong with the electrics.
I bet if left two three days it does not start anymore, if I were you I would investigate further...
As per the fault code, have you ruled out the sensor first, I don't remember exactly but I gave these tests to someone else as well:
-pin 3 and 5(plug disconnected) testing the maf sensor you should have 336000 ohmi with 18 Celsius outside
-4 and 5 disconnected testing the maf sensor you should have 340000 ohmi
-2 and earth disconnected testing the supply( wiring) with ignition on you should have 11-14 v
-3 and 4 plug connected engine at idle you should have 5v
3 and 5 plug connected engine at idle you should have 1.6v

Same fault code applies for the turbocharger boost pressure sensor and test is as per below:
-pin 1 and 4 connected and engine at idle you should have 1.6v
-pin 1 and 4 connected engine at 2500 rpm you should have 2v.

Hope it helps.
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#5 frogland

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 05:48 PM

From what i gather everyone seems quite resigned to the fact that there's draw on the battery in these cars.
So hopefully with the button mod and a good trickle charger the battery life might stay decent. I'm fortunate in so much that where i live we get a lot of sun.
Thanks for those figures for testing the sensors I'll give it it go and keep you informed.
I've already had the egr and turbo out and everything appeared fine. So I'm really hoping that it's the MAP.

#6 QinteQ

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 07:29 PM

Battery choice, like choosing a wife, provokes different opinions on what is beautiful. The issue[s] however are simple. You should be looking for about 800CCA over 80aH, this is a physical size that will not fit the CRD battery tray, so get a big one and modify the tray, or get a smaller one and take your UK winter chances. There is a~n~other UK issue of lifestyle, its a use it or lose it condition. If like me you do 2000 miles per annum with two 15 minutes trips once a week you will regardless of battery size / cost never keep that battery charged, the BUS [over 7 or so days] at resting will use more than the 30 minutes the alternator was able to replace.
 
Different people have success with different batteries, I'm sure the UK users will come to your aid with their suggestions, particularly the Scottish contingent who have an even colder climate than I. For myself I originally had a Banner Uni Bull 690 over 70 and my replacement was a Bosch S5 Type 96 at 800 over 80. Best of luck.
 
Lifestyle : Two 15 minutes trips once a week.
 
The  higher  the  voltage  applied,  the  faster the battery will charge, charging at too  high a voltage WILL  damage  your  battery. A simple 100Ah open lead acid  battery and a 180A charger connected to the battery discharged to 50% :
 
- @ 50% full @ 13.2V current was 35A
- @ 50% full @ 14,8V current was 160A [improvement of 457%]
- @ 75% full @ 13.2V current was 1A
- @ 75% full @ 14.8V current was 60A [improvement of 6000%]
 
- two 15 minute periods @ 13.2V is 2 x 15 minute @ 21Ah, compared to ;
- two 15 minute periods @ 14.4V is 2 x 15 minute @ 60Ah, is an improvement  of  about  300%
 
The temperature sensor under the battery will drop [ temperature compensator's on modern alternators will compensate] the voltage output from about 14.0V to about 13.2V. The problem I have with this is the engine compartment soon reaches temp and the battery assumes its fully charged.
 
- 13.20 volts is about what you would expect from [split diode - does not apply to Voyagers, and] this vehicle with a temp sensor & alternator compensator
- 14.00 volts  is about what you would expect from any typical alternator without a vehicle temp sensor & alternator compensator
- 14.40 volts is what you would expect from a sealed lead acid to prevent [they tend to gas @ 50ºC] excessive gassing
- 14.80 volts is what you can risk pushing it to with an open lead acid to prevent damage to other equipment connected to the battery at the same time
 
NOTE01 : I wouldn't buy one, or use one, but in the interests of even handed-ness a spiral will do the job - make sure you get the right 'posts' for your type !
NOTE02 : There are IOD 7 functions that are 'live' when you think your car and battery are asleep, they pull a combined 0.025 ampere draw. I used a Maplins cheepo 4W solar panel which cost me £15 at the time, and it was useless. I used a top end German 80W solar system, woprked in the summer useless in the winter.
 
IGNITION-OFF DRAW TEST - reproduced from the workshop manual.
 
The term Ignition-Off Draw (IOD) identifies a normal condition where power is being drained from the battery with the ignition switch in the Off position. A normal vehicle electrical system will draw from fifteen to twenty five milliamperes (0.015 to 0.025 ampere) with the ignition switch in the Off position, and all non-ignition controlled circuits in proper working order. Up to twenty-five milliamperes are needed to enable the memory functions for the Powertrain Control Module (PCM), digital clock, electronically tuned radio, and other modules which may vary with the vehicle equipment. A vehicle that has not been operated for approximately twenty one days, may discharge the battery to an inadequate level. When a vehicle will not be used for twenty one days or more (stored), remove the IOD fuse from the Integrated Power Module (IPM). This will reduce battery discharging. Excessive IOD can be caused by:
 
• Electrical items left on.
• Faulty or improperly adjusted switches.
• Faulty or shorted electronic modules and components.
• An internally shorted generator.
• Intermittent shorts in the wiring
 

Optima thread here, type 96 describes all / any brand close to 80/800 such as the Varta E38 etc. Dont ever under any circumstances use one of those put your REG in here. Loads of info including cutting the battery tray walkthroughs here in this forum somewhere. Anyone with unexpectedly high off-draw should look for recent changes made to wiring, particularly new radio have been made to wiring leading to IOD issues and parasitic drain.
 

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#7 frogland

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 09:10 PM

So will I be safe with the button mod ??

#8 gordy

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 09:30 PM

Yes I've got your bigger battery choice as well, having to cut a bit of battery tray out. Worth while job. I got rid of my battery drain problem by turning off interior lights at the adjuster wheel every time I get out.

P0235 still on going with my car, goes into temp limp mod if I boot it. Thought to be over-boost with Turbo waste-gate not being operated by the actuator. Had the complete shutdown issue on booting it but Boost sensor sorted that. 


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#9 frogland

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 12:51 PM

12.5v this morning, it was raining I noticed some water ingress into the engine bay from the scuttle tray ! is this common ?

#10 QinteQ

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 01:33 PM

Yes I've got your bigger battery choice as well, having to cut a bit of battery tray out. Worth while job. I got rid of my battery drain problem by turning off interior lights at the adjuster wheel every time I get out.

P0235 still on going with my car, goes into temp limp mod if I boot it. Thought to be over-boost with Turbo waste-gate not being operated by the actuator. Had the complete shutdown issue on booting it but Boost sensor sorted that. 

HiYa Gordy, even if the interior lights were all left on by accident or even deliberately they should ALL be switched off [sleep mode] by the BCM software about 15 minutes after locking the vehicle up.

 

With me it is / was / continues to be (self inflicted)  'lifestyle' x2 15 minute trips in the summer will replace the starting draw value but will go nowhere close to replacing the starting draw value in the winter. I see the MOD as a purse / bank ... you are deffo going to run out of banked-starts ... when it will happen depends on how big and how full the bank is in the 1st place.

 

frogland. Lots of people have done the batteryMOD, all 100% effective, zero reports of any problems, here's my original post on the subject :

 

 

 

Apologies to Martyn, the reply intended for this # went to this one by mistake. - Now moved here !

 

Lots of opinionated opinion and two specifics - battery fits & the 'buttonMOD'. All Chrysler fused battery positive voltage is supplied to almost everything through the analogue Inte-grated Power Module [IPM] before it goes to the critical digital FCM [Front Control Module]. That fusebox is not what it appears to be but is several 'layered' PCB's with pins stcking up through one or more PCB's into what you call the fusebox, the amount of potential for shorted, verdigreased, cancered wiring and bad connections suggest that the 'hinged book' underside of the IPM should always be checked.
 
 
On CCA a simplistic and non techie answer - CCA is how much it your battery can supply in a short burst to start your car - aH is the total time it can supply it for until its dead. There are plenty of UK threads on the subject in this forum, different people have different outcomes, opinions and lifestyles but all agree that a good battery in good nick is an absolute in the UK. Batteries have an amazingly short lifespan, stick an undersized battery on an oversized job and it will shorten its lifespan correspondingly but not in a linear way in other words the three year expected lifespan can come down to one year in just six months. "It takes a lot longer to fully charge a modern car battery than many people realise – typically 240 miles of driving with no load or eight hours of continuous driving - not as millions claim Oh! about 15 minutesd mate ! - which can unfortunately lead to problems. This old Yorkshire-man's view on deep cycle wet-flooded needs to be related to newer tech. New tech such as AGM's and spirals can 'soak up' to 40% their available capacities rather than the 25% of the older tech. And there we have the nub of it .. .. this CRD car designed for spark not compression has a diesel engine with a petrol standard battery which to me appears to be not fit for purpose in that first place
 
On my first experience with the GV battery replacement. Rang first to check stock, then went to Halfords, ordered their own recommended [put your registration in]  5 year warranted battery the HSB096 @ £129:99 while the nice clepto-cashier lady was emptying my plastic I flicked up the terminal covers to find the Terminals were the wrong way [o O - they should be - O o]  round.
 Posted Image
 
A 12 year old expert fully trained and certificated male assistant wiped the dribble from his nose and stormed out to my MOTA in the rain which was splattering against his thin bony shoulders making a mess of his over white freshly ironed by his Mother .. .. shirt, all the time asserting in a very authoritative way why I way wrong and why it could not possibly be their 'fittings dBase', his matchstick like thin arms finally managed to lift the bonnet without breaking any of his arms only to find the common standard terminals.
 
I did try to help his embarrassment, honest I did, I even offered him one of my Wurthers Originals and assured him we all make mistakes .. .. its all part of life's long learning .. .. but I still want my £230 snots back and I want them now. So now I'm back to where I started, I never in my life thought buying a correct 'soddin battery would be so much trouble.
 
My word what a catalogue of eejits, they listed a 315mm long, 175mm wide, 175mm high, the 315mm is about 27mm / 1.06 inches more than my current battery which will make the 175mm installed height of the battery a full inch closer to the sound deadening material on the underside of the bonnet [radiator side]. So look make you won mind up - for myself - don't believe what these 'enter your registration' dataBASE's tell you .. .. they are as good as the wo/man entering the DATA and I've found three tonight alone that were wrong including EuroParts, they'll flog you anything in hope more that expectation that will fit their abc size dimension model and take you money, they care not at all about what you want, have no interest in pole placement or CCA or anything else - do not believe the dataBase they all use the same CD and they are all wrong, even when they claim to check your VIN number.
 
On chonking the tray The FCM needs to be taken out and re situated and the FCM armoured shield needs to be removed completely. [see below pics]
2mpbimv.jpg
16gbn8h.jpg
Its not a big job I pulled the Mopar connector carefully after completely disconnecting both battery terminals. The battery then comes out and the tray also comes out. I used an angle grinder and cut the front lip of the tray out and the rear 'hold down' of the S6 battery. [see below pic]
fmria0.jpg
 
While I was in there I opened 'swing up and to the left' the IPM and soft brass brushed everything and used a tin of military grade Novec to clean the terminals and connectors as best I could. Reversal was easy, the FCM shield was not replaced and the only issue was that thee terminals on the S6 were the wrong way round and even at a stretch [stretching a loom is a very bad thing] would not reach. I'd already bought a Big Red 200A Key and extended the cables and battery clamps to size so that any battery regardless of orientation would fit and I'd have an extra layer of security because the 3 second act of popping the key in my pocket would leave the car disabled without taking out the battery.
 
On the buttonMOD I'll have to re-think this and post later, essentially thanks to a poster named Leedsman with a background in electronics, he made a simple mod that meant the current thinking of a charge rate of 14v- would be over-ridden to return us to the old school standard of 14.5v+ by the simple insertion of an 18p resistor from Maplins into the charging circuit. he and others did the MOD without risk, without 'gassing' and the charge time in minuted was considerably reduced. I'll need to find the original information in order to honestly report on it.
 
LeedsMans exact words were :
 
 
Thanks to Leedsman DKa3lr6.png
Its long winded and covers a lot of areas hopefully someone will benefit. I never needed the buttonMOD because I ran a solar charger but I will try to test the MOD and post the info for anyone who needs it.

 

 

 


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#11 frogland

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Posted 23 February 2018 - 12:52 PM

12.6 v this morning after having left the iod fuse out.

#12 QinteQ

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Posted 23 February 2018 - 02:43 PM

Is the radio an original to the car build ?



#13 mikebh8

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Posted 23 February 2018 - 03:20 PM

Tonight do this: after a half an hour an hour trip, disconnect the battery terminal and che k tomorrow what voltage do you get.
Is the battery good?
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#14 frogland

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 05:03 AM

Is the radio an original to the car build ?


Yes.

#15 soupstone

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 11:14 AM

My radio is original, but when chasing a power draw, I removed it and found that it had previously had an aftermarket stereo fitted. 
This was what was causing my battery drain. There was a wire that was live all the time, that should have no power to it with the keys removed.
In my case, the electric windows work all the time, and the clock on the radio is always displaying the time. 
Suspect the wiring's been messed about with somewhere, to give the aftermarket stereo that had been fitted a constant live feed. I fitted a seperate switch to isolate the constant live. 

Something you could try tonight is pull the rdo ewd/rr wpr fuse, see if that keeps the battery voltage around the 12.6.
 Ideally, you would use a test meter and check for a current draw. Mines was 600mA, and it went down to around 30mA when pulling the fuse I've mentioned. 


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#16 frogland

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 02:43 PM

I received the new MAP sensor unfortunately the code P0235 is still there :(

Her are the voltage readings i took engine at idle there was no change under acceleration.

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#17 mikebh8

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 10:35 PM

The test for the boost sensor is made with the plug in?...did you have your engine running while the plug disconnected?!?!?!

If you did, most likely the check engine light came on, if it doesn't turn off disconnect the battery terminals for 20-30 mins and see if that helps.

 

Anyway, I believe the reading are not good readings, so I will wait until you reply to this topic with the reading when engine running because even if you took the readings with the engine on..after disconnecting the plug you will have wrong measurements.

 

Have a look at the picture attached, if the values don't mach my previous post, chase the cables and do a polarity test checking for any physical damage.

 

The boost sensor is labelled B105 and the MAF is B101 

Terminal number 3 from boost sensor goes to the MAF sensor terminal number 2

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Edited by mikebh8, 25 February 2018 - 10:39 PM.

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#18 frogland

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 05:29 AM

Thanks Mike,when work commitments let me,I'll get back to you.
In the diagram A36 refers to ECU ?

#19 mikebh8

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 07:12 AM

Yes.
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#20 bignev

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 09:56 PM

Er, just a thought, but don't the codes stay in the memory unless they are cleared?

 

Does it run fine now? If so it could now be ok but still showing history codes. My abs sensor ring did exactly that.

 

On all 3 of my 3.3 petrols the radiator cooling fan comes on before it's up to temp, possibly say 1/4 mark, then off, then settles to an expected pattern - if it's ruddy hot, or the AC is on, it runs.


Edited by bignev, 26 February 2018 - 09:57 PM.

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