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2.8Crd Cutting Out Above 2.5K Rpm

crd cutting out stalling diesel

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#21 bignev

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 09:10 PM

Hey Andy, just an outside guess, along your lines of thinking, but is it possible to check for a partially blocked fuel feed line?

 

Or is it possible for the other fuel pump to be under delivering? I don't know how they work on these engines.

 

On our 1.8 diesel Galaxy, after a fuel filter change, located in the engine bay, there isn't a hope in hell of the fuel pump getting it to run again. Yes I fill the canister and bleed the air from the top. It has to be pulled through with a vac pump attached to the fuel line on the pump at the front of the engine, as it has no electric lift pump or hand primer pump.



#22 Expoman

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 11:36 AM

Andy,

 

I've been unable to connect to the site for a couple of days hence delay in responding.

 

That's very interesting news.

 

I'll take mine out this afternoon and try to duplicate all that you have done and we'll see what happens. I didn't make it clear that I'm replacing the filter and filter assy rather than the pump itself, hopefully we can avoid that expense!

 

Mine is auto but I'll try revving in Park and see what I get.

 

My thoughts on the solenoid were simply that I couldn't see why the solenoid would only malfunction under load, maybe rubbish but anyway you seem to have eliminated that particular code with your clever test.

 

Mine is the same after stalling. I have to completely switch off before getting it to start, if I don't, she just turns and turns without a hint of firing (hence my initial thoughts about immobiliser cut off, which I've now moved away from).

 

Yes, I think your assumption is reasonable, when I think about it, mine has always cut out under strong acceleration and you're right, the main condition in that state is increased fuel demand. Possibly with some air in the fuel lines, the engine manages with the reduced flow at lower revs but the moment the revs need to increase, it can't hold on?

 

I'm going to ask around here (I'm in the south of France - yes, alright for some!) and see if I can find a diesel specialist, I suspect that could be the way to go for me as I lack your hands on skills!

 

Mike - thanks for that, I'll try and get it checked out, just don't understand why it would occur just under acceleration over 2,500 rpm?

 

Overall, I think we are on the right lines, I think it is fuel starvation and I haven't always had the problem with the car so it is a condition that has developed, it's not inherently faulty - anyway, that thought keeps me going! I'll report back later!

 

All best,

S



#23 andyb2000

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 03:24 PM

Thanks Mike/Nev,

I thought about auto-shutdown, but it's a more precise point of cutting out than a potential random electrical drop, plus the LED/signal test I've now done with the fuel solenoid I believe eliminates anything about the ECU shutting the engine down as it doesn't try to kill the fuel supply/solenoid (Which would be an obvious first shutdown kill-switch to pull).

 

One thing, on the .com forum somebody mentioned the solenoid is more a valve than on/off, so a binary LED test may not be 100% accurate, although it did stay constantly on, so it was good enough for my test.

 

Nev, not sure on the fuel line block, not sure how to check that easily either, other than somehow cutting a bit of line and putting clear pipe to 'watch' for bubbles or collapse of the pipe. High pressure fuel pump under-delivering is a real possibility. The HP pump is directly driven from the timing belt, unsure if it's 'timed' as such on these engines and if that has an impact, but my understanding is the HP pump gives out a constant 'high' pressure fed to the line, the injectors take their pressure/required squirt and anything over is returned via the over-pressure/return lines, so in theory if the pump isn't giving out enough pressure it would affect all engine speeds, not just higher.

True enough on not being able to re-pressure the system, Steve and my own experiences show the low-pressure/electric lift pump seems to HAVE to run to re-prime the system which fits with your experience on the Galaxy.

 

I'm wondering if a punt of a second hand injector and then doing injector swapping might highlight one or more faulty ones causing it. Long shot, but again so far I've spent very little cost on this so a £50 ebay injector might be worth a go, providing they're not wedged in too tightly.

 

Steve, mine also developed this, have had it almost 3yrs now and other than occasional tough starting in the cold (even after glo plugs changed) it's never failed in this way, so yes I'd agree it's developed and got worse over time, so wear and tear probably.

Also Steve, good luck on the fuel filter replacement, it seems a lot of people after doing that resolve this problem, so I think there are a few different scenarios that cause this issue, so there may not be one right answer unfortunately. I'm tempted to change the filter on mine, it looked fine to me and was replaced last year but for the sake of another 20 mins and £30 it might be worth doing just incase something silly like a load of gunk in there has jammed it that I can't see and is choking it (Kinda contrary to my thoughts earlier on the HP pump, but at the moment I'm trying just about anything in reason!)

 

As always will keep posting back :-) Good luck Steve, thanks for posting back it's appreciated having another set of eyes on the problem. Pity you're all the way in sunny France otherwise would happily swap notes over a cuppa!


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#24 Expoman

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 11:15 AM

Andy,

 

So here's the latest.

 

Warmed her up then drove her down the second part of my drive where there is a turning area then back up what is a very steep incline. About 2000 rpm no probs then slowed her right down to idle speeds as I rolled to the gate and she cut out! (Engine had been warmed up, so no problem there).

 

I turned off the ignition and she restarted first time. I took her out for a drive, first letting her roll downhill on 1000 to 1500 rpm then once on the flat, I gave her a boot full several times, 3000 rpm and a bit over (wheel blocks part of the rev counter so couldn't see exactly what she topped out at) with absolutely no problems. Drove her home up the steep hill ; l gave her a boot full several times, 2500 to 3000 rpm, and she never missed a beat!

 

It's interesting that my only cut out was after coming up a very steep incline slowly - fuel starvation?

 

Really frustrating, as during the test drive I used a variety of driving styles yet couldn't induce the fault, in fact the engine pulled beautifully and ran evenly.

 

My local guy thought injectors but all have been replaced with recon items and the problem persists.

 

On the plus side, I have found a diesel specialist locally that I will be contacting to make an appointment once my fuel filter and housing has arrived (not just the filter as I read online in a couple of places that the housing itself can also be the problem, fine cracks allowing air into the system).

 

Is the fact that it is necessary to turn off the ignition completely to restart after significant? As you say, the likelihood is the lift pump needs to reprime the system so does this indicate air in the fuel system?

 

Yes, it's a long way for a cuppa but maybe we can have a glass of Champagne on the day we finally solve the problem!

 

Likewise, I'll keep posting.



#25 mrtibbs

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 04:21 AM

Just a thought guys. I am thinking that because you both have to go through the start "sequence" rather than just tuning the key back to "run" it would suggest to me that there is air in the system and it needs to purge it out by running the LP pump. The LP pump sounds as though it is working so I would definitely look at replacing the filter housing as I have also heard that these can suffer with minute cracks thereby letting in air.

Hoping that you both get to the bottom of this fault.

 

Keith


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#26 Expoman

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 12:18 PM

Keith, I will have that looked at by the diesel specialists I have found.

 

I was wondering what the significance of having to turn off the ignition fully and restart using the full sequence might be - your conclusion is that by restarting the sequence, the LP activates and removes the air so the fuel gets through and the engine starts whereas just by turning the engine over without returning the ignition to zero, it doesn't?

 

Very many thanks,

 

Best,

S


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#27 mrtibbs

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Posted 07 January 2018 - 07:59 AM

Hi, yes that is my thinking. Good luck and please post back to let us know the result :)

 

Keith



#28 andyb2000

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 09:25 AM

Right, well this is getting odd now!

As you know, I spun the fuel filter off, had a look and didn't see much of a problem. I've not really used the car since. This weekend I had it out and driving (Went for MOT) and thought I'd see how it was behaving. I could NOT get it to stall on me, hard acceleration, slow acceleration, almost red-lining the revs and it just wouldn't do it!

Thought it was a fluke but did it several times over the weekend and can't get it to fail on me.

 

So several bits to this:

I've had the fuel filter off, filter out, tipped gunk out of bottom of housing, reseated rubber o-ring and refitted it.

I've also been running this potentially 'bad' fuel down (down to half a tank now from full) and have put redex diesel injector cleaner in it (upping the RON).

 

So could it have been a combination of the above? I'm not saying this is fixed as I'm expecting it to do it again but I'm starting to wonder now.



#29 Expoman

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 09:42 AM

Funny, I had that the other day as I wrote above, will take mine out again today.

 

The dreaded intermittent fault, the mechanics nightmare!

 

One possible explanation for the problem I have seen on the web is the fuel filter housing 'o'ring cracking and allowing air into the system so it could be that in your case, the reseating has improved the sealing?

 

I am very persuaded by Keith's explanation as to why we have have to switch off the ignition completely added to the fault code of loss of pressure in the fuel system. What puzzles me is that I can rev the you know what's out of the engine in P or N and it never falters - why should this be?

 

My new parts have not arrived yet, hoping that they will today so expect to have them fitted and the car checked out by a diesel specialist within the next 7 to 10 days.

 

Fingers crossed that we are close to solving this problem........



#30 soupstone

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 08:28 AM

Right, well this is getting odd now!

As you know, I spun the fuel filter off, had a look and didn't see much of a problem. I've not really used the car since. This weekend I had it out and driving (Went for MOT) and thought I'd see how it was behaving. I could NOT get it to stall on me, hard acceleration, slow acceleration, almost red-lining the revs and it just wouldn't do it!

Thought it was a fluke but did it several times over the weekend and can't get it to fail on me.

 

So several bits to this:

I've had the fuel filter off, filter out, tipped gunk out of bottom of housing, reseated rubber o-ring and refitted it.

I've also been running this potentially 'bad' fuel down (down to half a tank now from full) and have put redex diesel injector cleaner in it (upping the RON).

 

So could it have been a combination of the above? I'm not saying this is fixed as I'm expecting it to do it again but I'm starting to wonder now.

When I had a cutting out issue on my 2.5, all I did was remove and refit the filter bowl and that cured it.  

Removing and refitting the front filter on my 2.8 also stopped the same symptom cutting out problem. That was finger tight when I went to take it off, the guy had serviced it before I picked it up. 

So I'd say it's quite possibly been the cause all along. 

 

 


Edited by soupstone, 09 January 2018 - 08:29 AM.

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#31 Expoman

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 03:48 PM

Well, my filter and housing arrived today, so I'll get it fitted.

 

I've used the car a further 5 times now and it hasn't cut out once!


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#32 andyb2000

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 10:08 AM

Just to add to this, I've done around 500 miles more in mine now and still no issues after just taking off and back on the filter housing, think you might be onto something there @soupstone

 

I've still got the replacement Bosch filter ready so if it does it again I'll swap it... As everyone DID suggest as first thing to do and I didn't since I'd already done that 1yr ago!

 

It's a weird one @Expoman and strange also yours has been fine. I'm waiting for - temperature weather again (was 0oC this morning) as it was on a -2oC day it happened the first time, not sure if that's related. Good luck m8



#33 QinteQ

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 08:41 PM

A 'spin on' metal can with plastic water drain tap on the end.
 
 s-l400.jpg
 
Spin off the old one and lubricate the ring on the top of the new one with a finger of engine oil, make sure the plastic drain tap on the bottom of the new one is tight, and spin on the new cannister. Draw through the diesel with the hand lift pump which is central between RAD and engine, when the hand pump is hard you have done the job.
 
A slack[ened] drain tap or loose[ned] can seat is a big LP favourite for "car turns over but will not start". Best of luck.


#34 soupstone

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 09:30 PM

 Pretty sure the rear fuel bowl has a drain tap on it as well, so worth checking for either setup. 

 



#35 andyb2000

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 08:08 AM

Well, I'm currently sat broken down again. This morning we had snow and cold temperatures (0oC) which was the same as last time so it is temperature related.

This is cutting out and dying at low revs as well as higher revs (idling it'll stall out itself).
So next plan is change the fuel filter. Next maybe the fuel heater in the fuel housing since it's always in very cold weather?

#36 soupstone

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 09:05 PM

The filters definitely worth a go.
 When you mentioned gunk earlier, was there a lot? Emptying the filter bowl may have got rid of a lot of it,  giving you a good flow again, but it's built up again and is partially blocking the filter? 
​ This is a long shot, but perhaps google diesel bug (again, due to you mentioning gunk). I read about it when running biodiesel, and put an additive in to prevent it. I'm under the impression pump diesel can contain bio diesel these days, up to 5% without being declared. 

  


Edited by soupstone, 18 January 2018 - 09:05 PM.

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#37 QinteQ

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 10:38 PM

UK GOV Bio

 

Some diesel biofuels made from food crops, produce more emissions than fossil fuels and bump up the price of food crops. The 4.75% in fuel is going to rise towards the 10% EU-wide target by 2020.



#38 soupstone

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 11:04 PM

If it's grown specifically for biofuels, I can see why it would produce more emissions and increase the price of food crops. 
Mines was made at home from used oil, collected from local businesses, and cost about 60p a gallon. 



#39 mikebh8

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 06:25 AM

The filters definitely worth a go.
 When you mentioned gunk earlier, was there a lot? Emptying the filter bowl may have got rid of a lot of it,  giving you a good flow again, but it's built up again and is partially blocking the filter? 
​ This is a long shot, but perhaps google diesel bug (again, due to you mentioning gunk). I read about it when running biodiesel, and put an additive in to prevent it. I'm under the impression pump diesel can contain bio diesel these days, up to 5% without being declared.


In europe (in some places at least I noticed on our trips) it says on the pump something like " it may contain at least 5% biodiesel"

#40 andyb2000

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 10:09 AM

Well, this gets stranger perhaps, so bear with me!

After getting it home, starting to think through it all again, as was about to change the filter @mikebh8 as I was thinking the same, gunk in there, building up over time, so swap/clear it out again.

 

Then I thought, this is temperature related. Cold weather every time. So looked at what is temperature linked. Diesel fuel heater, which is inside the filter assembly. Shop manual states it operates at 8oC and lower and will run fuel temperature up to 25oC. So that would/should be running helping the fuel atomise (General google search confirms that all diesels have this and symptoms of failure are exactly this, cold weather start and random cut out).

 

So went to check the fuse and relay first... MISSING from fusebox. 

fuel_heater_relayx.jpg

 

So I borrowed a relay and fuse, ignition on and the 20amp fuse blew straight away, so we've got a short. So, went under car and disconnected the connector block (6-way to the fuel assembly, carrying the lift pump power, water-in-fuel sensor and the fuel heater). Tried again, blew fuse again, so I now know it's actually a wiring fault/short to ground somewhere between the IPM and the connector at the fuel filter housing.

 

So that's the next job, find the wiring fault/short causing the problem. Maybe I'm getting somewhere, or maybe I'm on a wild goose chase, either way I've got a fault to fix!

 

If anyone else could do me a favour? If you have a diesel GV, have a look for that fuse and relay, just to confirm they should actually be in there. I'm going to say yes they should since the electrical connections exist, the diagrams show the existence of the heater, etc.

 







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