Huge Battery Drain.

[Guyus]

Hi all, new here.

 

My petrol 3.3 Grand Voyager (had since new, 2003) has for years shown signs of quirky electrical behaviour (headlight flickering, strange door/alarm/lights performance) but recently it peaked with a massive battery drain.

 

NOW it just won't start at all even when battery disconnected then charged (to 11v).  It will however jump start fine.

 

My Garage removed the IOD fuse and it runs with seemingly no drain but battery light soon comes on (presumed alternator issue) and obviously no alarm, radio,doors etc etc.

 

Are we looking at the Alternator here or is it a short circuit somewhere?

 

I'd hate to lose this van, she's a petrol guzzler, but a gem

 

many thanks 

 

 

 

 

[Semmysonic]

Mine is doing odd things electricly speaking too.

Had a few starting issues 2years ago, think it was the interior lights drain the battery if the doors were open for too long+kids using the back doors. Anyway new battery solved most of the problems.

I'd replace the battery first off.

 

Still have Flickering lights which I'm currently trying to solve. I am thinking the alt might need replacing. Before that I will change the Aux belt, had to change the idle pulley a few months ago but ordered the wrong belt so the belt never got changed, didn't fancy doing it in the bad weather.

[QinteQ]

Hi all, new here.

 

My petrol 3.3 Grand Voyager (had since new, 2003) has for years shown signs of quirky electrical behaviour (headlight flickering, strange door/alarm/lights performance) but recently it peaked with a massive battery drain.

 

NOW it just won't start at all even when battery disconnected then charged (to 11v).  It will however jump start fine.

 

My Garage removed the IOD fuse and it runs with seemingly no drain but battery light soon comes on (presumed alternator issue) and obviously no alarm, radio,doors etc etc.

 

Are we looking at the Alternator here or is it a short circuit somewhere?

 

I'd hate to lose this van, she's a petrol guzzler, but a gem

 

many thanks

 

Battery battery battery 1st. 12.5+ minimum needed, 11v is not even close to cranking, ate you saying you charged the battery up or just partially charged it ? It's a process, battery 1st, earths, IPM, etc before you even think about other options. GV's need 80/800, any battery over 3 years old is suspect. How old is yours and what's it rated at ?

[QinteQ]

IPM

 

- alternator is overvolting killing the plates

- alternator is undervolting and not charging enough

- battery was / is of an underpowered size and cant hold enough CCA

- the parasitic drain is permanently too high and the system can't hold charge

- your lifestyle is causing the issue, starting the car then not running for enough minutes to recharge the battery

- simply put one or too short a journey per week will kill the battery because it never replaces the initial energy used to start the car

 

GV's are a pig

 

ButtonMOD Leedsman

 

Optima Spiral Red Top

[Guyus]

Battery battery battery 1st. 12.5+ minimum needed, 11v is not even close to cranking, ate you saying you charged the battery up or just partially charged it ? It's a process, battery 1st, earths, IPM, etc before you even think about other options. GV's need 80/800, any battery over 3 years old is suspect. How old is yours and what's it rated at ?

The battery is a Varta E12 74Ah 680A. It's brand spanking new but was dead overnight after fitting due to the drain. I guess it IS only partially charged then since I'm only reading 11.2v from it with a multimeter. I'm using a Halfords battery conditioner to try and save it.

 

Is this the best battery to be using?

 

thanks

[Semmysonic]

The battery you have may be a little on the small side, however having said it shouldn't have drained it that quick!

 

I have heard of batteries being drained if the key isn't turned to the correct position (don't know how true that is though)

[Guyus]

The battery you have may be a little on the small side, however having said it shouldn't have drained it that quick!

 

I have heard of batteries being drained if the key isn't turned to the correct position (don't know how true that is though)

Which battery would you suggest? It's tricky as the size needs to be exact and the terminals I gather are the other way round from normal.

[Semmysonic]

Can't remember off the top of my head, I will take a look what I used later.

 

In the mean time There are probably a few threads on this forum with some good advice (battery issues are a common problem)

[QinteQ]

The battery is a Varta E12 74Ah 680A. It's brand spanking new but was dead overnight after fitting due to the drain. I guess it IS only partially charged then since I'm only reading 11.2v from it with a multimeter. I'm using a Halfords battery conditioner to try and save it.

 

Is this the best battery to be using?

 

thanks

The blue stuff in #4 cover most you need to know. The battery you already have should be adequate for these temps, personally I like 800/80 for British winters. Most 800/80's will not fit the battery tray and a saw/angle grinder needs to cut bits off. The Optima 'red top 4.2' spirals are one battery that will go straight in - straight swap and do the job. Most 'conditioners' are useless IMO, always take pro advice. Conditioners describe de-sulphing, a one year old battery no matter how badly treated should need de-sulphing. You can pay a fortune for smart chargers, I bought a 7 stage 'grey' smart for about £20 and I know it works so you can get one cheap. Start by giving your existing battery a good charge, if you can't get it to 12.75 its goosed, I've got a pro digital CCA counter you would be amazed to see how many infrequently used cars don't put out even 1/2 their stated CC starting amps. Want more - ask, we are all here to help each other. Best of luck.

[QinteQ]

"should need" needs to read "should NOT need"

[Semmysonic]

My apologies, I went for the exide, same size as you went for. It's been on for almost 2 years with no issues.

[QinteQ]

Optima thread here, type 96 describes all / any brand close to 80/800 such as the Varta E38 etc. Dont ever under any circumstances use one of those put your REG in here. Loads of info including cutting the battery tray walkthrough here. If the O/P has had issues since 2003 what recent changes to wiring particularly new radio have been made to wiring leading to IOD issues and parasitic drain. Does the O/P live anywhere near the north of the north of England ?

[Semmysonic]

Thanks for the info, don't need it yet but probably will in the near future. Never gets boring with these cars does it :-D

[Guyus]

yes indeed, thanks for all the good info. I now know more about our beloved V'ger than ever before.

 

I will be getting an 80/800 battery for sure but in the meantime I have been observing the drain on a multimeter between the neg batt terminal and the neg batt lead. With all doors shut and everything off, it's a whopping 1.2A until I remove the IOD fuse and then it drops to a more normal .01A.

 

With the IOD fuse in, I've tried removing all the available fuses in the fusebox one by one and have observed no difference in the drain. Are there any other fuseboxes in the car? I can't see any at all under the dash. It's the 2003 3.3 Grand Voyager. The manual does say there is a power seat fuse under the drivers seat and a power windows fuse near the steering column but I have failed to spot them thus far. Scratching head.

 

cheers

[QinteQ]

IOD draw and battery terminal. IOD of 0.025 ampere should be the draw AFTER 16 minutes forum post.

 

When you switch off and alarm and walk away your car is not asleep, its polling all sorts of thigs for a 1/4 of an hour, only them does it go to sleep. This is the Ring charger bought last year for £20 some quid, find one cheaper - I bought mine online from a car bits shop last year from Whityby. I don't know the 3.3 or the year but I'd say no only one, the one under the drivers seat etc are very high amps and are resettable droppers rather than fuses. You have followed exactly the same thought process and testing routine I've used.

[QinteQ]

I've just linked at mine for you mine was the cheepo 408 9 stage 8amp charger. Now it's poss that some poor sod in a warehouse picked up a 9 stage instead of an intended 7 stage by mistake. I'm sure these 'grey' units are a clone rip off of the ctec chip but I have tested it and it works

My spare £150 S6 has been permananly plugged in to this charger for over a year.If buying one saves you £100 on the ctec ..... good. The batteryMOD is the very best single mod to do to a GV, 5 minutes and 20p well spent.

[Guyus]

I've just linked at mine for you mine was the cheepo 408 9 stage 8amp charger. Now it's poss that some poor sod in a warehouse picked up a 9 stage instead of an intended 7 stage by mistake. I'm sure these 'grey' units are a clone rip off of the ctec chip but I have tested it and it works

My spare £150 S6 has been permananly plugged in to this charger for over a year.If buying one saves you £100 on the ctec ..... good. The batteryMOD is the very best single mod to do to a GV, 5 minutes and 20p well spent.

Thanks QuinteQ, can you give me a link to the Battery Mod, I can't find it.

 

I still have a heart-stopping 1.2A drain with the IOD circuit in place. This doesn't go away after 20 minutes, there is definitely a short or a pull from somewhere on that circuit. I will hunt it down by disabling systems as and when I find them. It could be inside the dash, could be the tailgate, could be the power seats...I don't know.

 

It seems I have executed the procedure below from another post - up until the highlighted part.

I'm not sure where the generator harness is. (also don't understand the following blue sentence)

 

 

IGNITION-OFF DRAW TEST - reproduced from the workshop manual - NOTE - My Bold.

 

The term Ignition-Off Draw (IOD) identifies a normal condition where power is being drained from the  battery with the ignition switch in the Off position. A normal vehicle electrical system will draw from fifteen to twenty five milliamperes (0.015 to 0.025 ampere) with the ignition switch in the Off position, and all non-ignition controlled circuits in proper working order. Up to twenty-five milliamperes are needed to enable the memory functions for the Powertrain Control Module (PCM), digital clock, electronically tuned radio, and other modules which may vary with the vehicle equipment. A vehicle that has not been operated for approximately twenty one days, may discharge the battery to an inadequate level. When a vehicle will not be used for twenty one days or more (stored), remove the IOD fuse from the Integrated Power Module (IPM). This will reduce batterydischarging. Excessive IOD can be caused by:

 

• Electrical items left on.

• Faulty or improperly adjusted switches.

• Faulty or shorted electronic modules and components.

• An internally shorted generator.

• Intermittent shorts in the wiring

 

If the IOD is over twenty five milliamperes, the problem must be found and corrected before replacing a battery. In most cases, the battery can be charged and returned to service after the excessive IOD condition has been corrected. (1) Verify that all electrical accessories are off. Turn off all lamps, remove the ignition key, and close all doors. If the vehicle is equipped with an illumi-nated entry system or an electronically tuned radio, allow the electronic timer function of these systems to automatically shut off (time out). This may take up to twenty minutes. (2) Disconnect the batterynegative cable. (3) Set an electronic digital multi-meter to its highest amperage scale. Connect the multi-meter between the disconnected batterynegative cable terminal clamp and the battery negative terminal post. Make sure that the doors remain closed so that the illuminated entry system is not activated. The multi-meter amperage reading may remain high for up to three minutes, or may not give any reading at all while set in the highest amperage scale, depending upon the electrical equipment in the vehicle. 

 

The multi-meter leads must be securely clamped to the battery negative cable terminal clamp and the battery negative terminal post. If continuity between the battery negative terminal post and the negative cable terminal clamp is lost during any part of the IOD test, the electronic timer function will be activated and all of the tests will have to be repeated. (4) After about three minutes, the high-amperage IOD reading on the multi-meter should become very low or nonexistent, depending upon the electrical equipment in the vehicle. If the amperage reading remains high, remove and replace each fuse or circuit breaker in the Integrated Power Module (IPM), one at a time until the amperage reading becomes very low, or nonexistent. Refer to the appropriate wiring information for complete Integrated Power Module fuse, circuit breaker, and circuit identification. This will isolate each circuit and identify the circuit that is the source of the high-amperage IOD. 

 

If the amperage reading remains high after removing and replacing each fuse and circuit breaker, disconnect the wire harness from the generator. If the amperage reading now becomes very low or nonexistent, ELECTRICAL/CHARGING - DIAGNOSIS AND TESTING) for the proper charging system diagnosis and testing procedures. After the high-amperage IOD has been corrected, switch the multimeter to progressively lower amperage scalesand, if necessary, repeat the fuse and circuit breaker remove and re-place process to identify and correct all sources of excessive IOD. It is now safe to select the lowest milliampere scale of the multi-meter to check the low- amperage IOD. CAUTION: Do not open any doors, or turn on any electrical accessories with the lowest milliampere scale selected, or the multi-meter may be damaged. (5) Allow twenty minutes for the IOD to stabilize and observe the multi-meter reading. The low-amperage IOD should not exceed twenty-five milliamperes (0.025 ampere). If the current draw exceeds twenty- five milliamperes, isolate each circuit using the fuse and circuit breaker remove-and-replace process in Step 4. The multi-meter reading will drop to within the acceptable limit when the source of the excessive current draw is disconnected. Repair this circuit as required; whether a wiring short, incorrect switch adjustment, or a component failure is at fault.

 

[Semmysonic]

Just a silly one is the ignition key in the correct position when you remove it?

 

I Only ask because the barrels can get sloppy which makes it possible to remove the key whilst on acc position and not off position.

 

Acc is all the way around anticlockwise . Off is one click back clockwise.

[Guyus]

Just a silly one is the ignition key in the correct position when you remove it?

 

I Only ask because the barrels can get sloppy which makes it possible to remove the key whilst on acc position and not off position.

 

Acc is all the way around anticlockwise . Off is one click back clockwise.

Really good point, I'll check. 

[QinteQ]

.#3. Battery battery battery 1st : 4 days later did you fully charge your 1 year old battery, and what charge did it show [11.9V is knackered - 12.0 is only 25% full and won't hardly start a small diesel] alternatively did you buy a new one and what did you buy, and does your car start 1st time ?

 

.#14. Power seat fuse : are as stated droppers, as you have had your battery removed for 4 days the 'droppers' should re-set themselves via the BCM/IPM

 

.#17. Can you give me a link to the Battery Mod:Its in #4 for you, link again here, you just cut the 5V supply wire 2 minutes Andy did his and put it pics on his facebook blog

[QinteQ]

For the O/P full main stealer workshop manuals list here, the elusive copy of the RG diesel is here.

[TobiasClaren]

The perfect fitting maximum is 77Ah.

For example from Exide (good, and not expensive from internet), if you grind the tighten bottom bulges at the short sides of battery some milimeters at both sides.

Grind away until the hollow bead is open at front. You need only the bottom bulges at long sides for tighten.

 

And use an ampermeter (as clamp from £9.21 up on ebay) to chek, if power is consumed after switch off the car.

Edited April 21, 2017 by TobiasClaren